Why This Social Security Disability Attorney Will Never Retire with Tracey Pate, Disability Associates

Tracey Pate (00:00) Just being able to change a person's life, even though no amount of money will make their health, situation around. To know that they can focus on their health without worrying, how am I going to get food on the table? How am I going to pay my rent? How am I going to make my mortgage? That's why I do what I do. That's the reason that I keep going and probably will never retire. Will Yang (00:50) My guest today is Tracy Pate, who founded Disability Associates in two thousand five and has spent more than two decades serving Social Security disability claimants. In this conversation, we get into the clerkship that taught her that judges are human and that cases are won on paper before you ever walk into the courtroom, why she walked away from the high volume firm model to build a boutique practice with her right hand and left hand, Angelique, and why she hires for emotional intelligence over administrative skill. We also explore the best advice she ever got from the judge that she clerked for, which is to make a decision. Tracy told me that she'll never retire and by the end of this conversation you'll understand why. Will Yang (01:27) Awesome. So I'm really excited right now to introduce Tracy to the podcast. Tracy, you've had a illustrious career in disability law, but let's take it all the way back to how you got your start. I believe it started somewhere, you know, in a clerk, in a clerk internship. So take me back to the very beginnings of your disability career. Tracey Pate (01:46) Yeah, so I during law school, towards the end of my third year of law school, I took on a clerkship for a judge in the Baltimore County Circuit Court. And it was just a great experience, probably one of my best experiences in law school because I got to see what I was learning in class in real time. And I was able to observe all different types of attorneys. I was able to observe the judicial process, how the judges make their decisions. And so it really did help me as I went out into the real world with my jobs. I ended up in a firm that where Part of the practice was disability work, but I decided that that was what I wanted to do with my career. The circuit court clerkship made me realize that judges are human and they're often overwhelmed from the high volume of cases they hear daily. As a law clerk, part of my job was to review the file in its entirety. And give the judge a summary of the case before he walked into the courtroom. It's not that he had his mind made up after the file review, but he knew what the strengths and weaknesses of the case were. There were lawyers who had weak cases on paper and thought that they could win with oral argument and testimony alone, and that was a losing strategy. So this was a lesson I carried with me into my practice. I understood how important it was to build a case on paper for the judge's eyes first. And this is especially important in the disability realm. The hearing is the icing on the cake, I say, but the hard work and preparation should be done well ahead of time, making sure all the documents you need to win the case are in the file before you walk in the courtroom. Will Yang (03:41) In those moments when you're, you know, interning and learning these lessons, I think that point on judges are human is a really salient one since it's so easy to get caught up in wanting to champion for your your clients and whatnot. And we'll talk about that later in this conversation. But I'm curious, was there any particular case or moment back then that still kind of sticks with you from that time in that internship? Or was it some sort of collection of just moments in the, interning experience where you just really knew, this this side of the work is really interesting to me, which then led you to focus on that disability side of things, leaving that clerkship and then going into the larger firm. Tracey Pate (04:19) Yes, I would say I realized how how much people need attorneys. And in in all different types of cases, but I really was impacted by the clients who just or the people who appeared before us, how scared they were and how it was their first time in a courtroom and they were desperate and had all kinds of issues that they weren't able to effectively articulate themselves and the attorney was that liaison between them the court. That is when I recognize that I want to work in a field where I can be that person. I was drawn to disability work because I was exposed to it early in my career, and it was an area of practice that I felt the clients were the most vulnerable and really needed an advocate. To navigate a process that is just so complicated and overwhelming and and intimidating. And so yeah, I would say that's how that clerkship really springboarded my passion for doing the work that I do now. Will Yang (05:33) From that clerkship, you then spend about eight years or so at, one of these larger law firms as well. At that chapter in your career, what are you starting to like about the work? And then what are you starting to not like about the work? Your reflections on this next chapter when you do really start focusing on the disability side. Tracey Pate (05:50) Yeah. So I did start out in the high volume type factory disability law firms where the business model required and relied on churning through cases. As I'm experiencing that, I'm feeling like, hey, we're forgetting about the humanity of our clients. And so I just felt like that model was not a model that I wanted to continue to participate in. Because these clients, these individuals come to us and work with us in what is already a traumatic experience. And if we're just focusing on, my gosh, I've got, ten hearings this week and and worrying about just keeping up with the volume, I didn't feel that I could effectively give the client what they needed. So that's when I decided to branch on my out on my own. Will Yang (06:44) And that's a big deal, right? Because in many cases, there's plenty of other people that have also spent their entire careers at these larger firms that are churning through those cases. So take me back to that moment. How did you have the the confidence or you know, the entrepreneurial spirit to take that plunge? Because not everybody does that or they think about doing it, but they're not quite there yet. Do you remember what was going through your head or what conversations Tracey Pate (07:06) Right. Will Yang (07:06) you were having with people at that time? Tracey Pate (07:08) Yeah, so it was a huge risk, but it was a risk that I was willing to take because I felt that there weren't many people who were, taking on that niche, that boutique, that small practice model because obviously it it's not as profitable typically. Because in the you know this practice you're only paid for cases that you win. But my was more important to me to be in relationship with the client and make them feel that they were heard and that someone was really coming alongside them every step of the way And I just felt like it was a calling for me. And so I partnered with my current paralegal and office manager Angelique, who I call my right and left hand. It just so happened she worked with me at the prior law firm. And I could tell just from her personality and conversations that we had together that we shared the same values and vision. And so it just led to conversations. And so we just took a leap and felt that, you know, we were both called in this direction. And it was one of those things where We're just like, we're gonna take this one day at a time and give it our best and stay true to our mission. And the clients came and the rest is history. Will Yang (08:41) Even going back to that time period, like you said, it was a big risk at that time. When you were having those early founding conversations with Angelique, what gave either of you the confidence to know that you were rowing in the right direction in the thick of, you know, this the formation storm when everything is not fully settled? Tracey Pate (08:57) I would say Just lean into the the nudges that you're hearing and it got to the point where, I had a nudge, but then it wouldn't let up. And Angelique felt the same way. And we also got a lot of really positive feedback because I'd been in the disability arena for a long time and developed a good reputation among other practitioners and judges and I think that positive feedback reinforced my feeling that I was moving in the right direction. But if if I had waited until all the stars perfectly aligned, I probably never would have done it because it's scary and you go from getting a paycheck every two weeks to, is this gonna work and you know, my family was very supportive, as was Angelique's. It was worth the risk. Will Yang (09:53) What were you learning from others who maybe were a few years ahead of you in terms of running their own practices? And do you remember any like pearls of wisdom that you jotted down in your journal. Tracey Pate (10:02) I did have a few really good friends who had stepped out on this path before I did. Other than saying do it, I mean there so many people that need lawyers who practice like we do. But other pearls of wisdom I would say would it it's not gonna be as profitable but so you need to make sure budget wise that you can live with with that and other pearls of wisdom I would say was were attend seminars, attend conferences, get really involved in your local bar association to get your name out there. Marketing is so important. Make sure you get involved in organizations like NOSSCR, which is the National Organization of Social Security's claimants representative and attend, any time the the hearing office at times would meet with lawyers, don't miss those. Go, you know, just put yourself out there. Yeah, so marketing was a important part of the puzzle. Will Yang (11:02) You mentioned earlier you knew that you guys had similar values. I'm kind of curious about that co-founder. Because sometimes co founder relationship is pretty much like any other relationship in that it needs to be built on a strong foundation. So what has been your guys' journey there? Tracey Pate (11:17) That's very true. So our I knew that I needed a very strong wingman. And that was Angelique, because a big part of this practice is administrative. Lots of paperwork, talking to many people on the phone. During the day n running a practice, just making sure, you know, you have your letterhead back in the day before everything was digital, hiring, payroll, all of those things while still being someone who, is able to make these clients feel like they're valued because I had worked with her for so long prior to starting disability associates. I knew she would just be amazing. And she really is. She wears so many hats in my firm. So my advice would be as attorney, if you do want to go out on your own, especially for the disability practice you want to have a really strong support person to come alongside because it's a lot to take on for one person and not only did we have the shared vision she could be in a sounding board share the emotional load as well as you know allow me to build a sustainable practice Will Yang (12:34) And that's so important, building a sustainable practice. In those moments when you guys through the years have maybe teetered on the point where maybe you felt it was a little less sustainable. What did you guys lean into in in your relationship as as co-founders in that situation to restabilize and make it sustainable? What has that been like in terms of those moments when naturally running a business is always gonna have ups and downs? Tracey Pate (12:57) We've always been aligned on, recognizing issues and and challenges. And while we maybe have had different ideas as to how to resolve, with conversation we always end up on the same page. In running a business you have to really pay attention to your finances. So we realized that we needed the help of a good accountant. We realize that we can't do this all ourselves. We do have to rely on other experts to help maintain, and sustain a practice. As opposed to just trying to muddle through doing things on our own, you know, those first few fees that we received were spent partnering with other professionals to make sure that we were on the right track to financial sustainability, and also to make sure that we were giving the clients the best service that we could. I mean, that would that was always the underlying goal. Will Yang (13:59) As you've grown the firn, I'm curious how you've taken that same lesson of specialization to where you all are today. Like what does the team look like? And how do you guys think about, when to add somebody to the team, when the team is in a good place? And what is to your points like sustainable work in today's day and age for your firm? Tracey Pate (14:16) Right. So today we have two additional legal assistants and an administrative assistant. And honestly my team we've been together I think for for ten years now with not needing to add anyone. Just really working in synchronicity with each other. It is just such a blessing when you can put together a group of people who just vibe. I don't know how else to say it. There's no drama. Everybody works hard. We all feel the same way about the job that we do. We're fully aligned and it just that's probably made my job so easy because you know there's always someone who picks up the slack when when someone else is unable to or overwhelmed. My advice to other people thinking about going out on their own. One important thing is, as you build your team, you want people with emotional intelligence. That's That's almost more important in a disability practice than having administrative skills. Because you're dealing with people who have lost everything and who are in pain. And we get A lot of my team, they spend a majority of their day on the phone with people, handling crisis management and you know things like that. So the the people that you bring on are so important. I couldn't do my job without my team. Will Yang (15:52) A quick break from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by Chronicle. The firms with the strongest operational control aren't necessarily the biggest ones. They're the ones who never miss what the SSA is telling them. Chronicle is what makes that possible. It monitors the ERE and the e-file daily, surfaces changes that may have happened, and keeps your team operating on SSA time rather than catching up to it. There's no more manual portal checks needed or scrambles when a notice comes in late. Just visibility. Built into your daily workflow. And you can learn more at chroniclelegal.com. All right, now back to Tracy. Will Yang (16:28) From the last time that we spoke, we were doing a case study and it was just very clear from the get go that your team was super close knit and you know that you worked in that sort of synchronicity. Tracey Pate (16:39) Mm-hmm. Will Yang (16:39) I've described it as like playing a symphony, I'm curious when it comes to those values, I know that You've always tried to treat your clients as if they're family, like what does that look like? If somebody were potentially interested in working with your firm, you know, what can they expect from that boutique approach that you've mentioned? Tracey Pate (16:57) they can expect that there will be a a great deal of client contact. So if they're coming from a law firm that they just sort of sat on the sidelines and pushed paper, it's not like that at all. You will be frontline, you'll be answering intake calls, you will be handling all different types of tasks. Because there is so much that goes into a disability case day to day, contacts that need to be made with agencies, paperwork that needs to be filed, letters that need to be drafted, emails, phone calls, and it's the ability to multitask is paramount. There's a lot to it. If you want just a normal nine to five, it's probably not the job for you, but the reward of at the end of the day realizing how much you helped these individual clients, you just can't really put a price tag on them. Will Yang (17:55) what do you think is key in those moments when you're having those early client conversations to build that rapport and initial relationship for these people to trust you in those greatly vulnerable moments where, somebody might not be as open to sharing exactly where they're at. Tracey Pate (18:09) Say The most important thing to do is listen. You have to really listen to a person's story and why they made that phone call to you. And then you have to be able to draw on your experience, because obviously, not every phone call becomes a case that you're gonna take. But every single person that calls our office gets our full attention. I would venture to say they don't walk away thinking that, they weren't helped. We go the extra mile of providing resources, referrals, even if it's a situation where we can't help them. We generally do not leave them hanging. You have to also have tremendous patience. Because you might be the first person that the client or the potential client, whatever the case may be, actually listen, heard them. They feel heard. So we take that extra time. The operational cost is, we're probably not taking as many cases as we could. But the reality of treating clients like family means we absorb a lot of trauma, crisis calls, financial desperation from people who've been waiting two years for a hearing. So that's important. There are just some cases where you can't help them and how to make them feel heard without just feeling like they're kicked to the curb. That's really important as Will Yang (19:33) Mm-hmm. Tracey Pate (19:34) well. Will Yang (19:34) What does a judge ask you that might reveal, the biggest gap between how the system is supposed to work and like how it actually works? And how what you have to teach with, with respect to your claimants through this process that they're going through about these like things that, you mentioned earlier, it's a complicated process. Tracey Pate (19:51) One thing I I always tell my clients is your case is only as good as your medical records. It is so important to give a good history to your doctors. Because if you go into your doctor and you're not explaining to them how much pain you're in, you freeze up. A lot of people do that when they go talk to doctors. It's not in your medical records. So the judge then sees, hears the client testifying to all of these limitations and pain and issues, but nowhere in the medical records do is that being reflected. So that's the most important thing I I tell my clients to please communicate with your doctors what you're dealing with. Another thing and that can be a hard thing to hear because you feel like if my clients well anyone would feel like but wait, you've gotta hear my whole story. Well, these judges have, five days a week maybe five to seven cases a day for thirty to forty-five minute hearing intervals. So it's important that we really focus on on what we need to focus on and not get too outside the scope so we don't you know we don't lose our effectiveness and potential ability to be successful in the claim. Will Yang (21:13) When you mentioned medical records, it made me also kind of think of the fact that, the way that Social Security Disability attorneys now process medical records is very different than years before. My understanding is that like you've really been a big adopter of AI and just in general workflow process improvements at your firm. I'm curious, you know, having been in this space for so many years, what's new today versus maybe what you did as close as just a couple of years ago or a decade ago at this point? Tracey Pate (21:42) Yeah, it's so great. I mean, AI and specifically our work with Chronicle has really bought me the bandwidth to take on harder cases. I have the ability to take on complex, document heavy cases, such as a younger individual with complicated autoimmune diseases or, a nuanced mental health case. Whereas before, my time was limited because I was spending so much time reading pages and pages of medical records myself and AI has really allowed, especially with like the ability to summarize medical records and and create medical chronologies. It saves so much of my time. And also working with Chronicle, used to be that I was the sole access point for the electronic records express program where I was the one doing the high paid data entry, checking statuses, downloading exhibits. And now with Chronicle, my team is able to to do all of those things. And it's increased our efficiency tenfold. It's allowed them to be more proactive and it's freed me to focus more on legal strategy and winning cases for my clients. Will Yang (23:05) For the firm owner that might be listing that is maybe a little bit more hesitant on technology, what would you tell somebody who maybe likes to let others test the waters first before they they dabble themselves? And, what advice would you give them in terms of their evaluation of whether or not to explore these newer technologies that are obviously very rapidly changing? Tracey Pate (23:26) Once again, I think if we're not leaning into this technology, we're gonna be left behind. Because Social Security certainly is. They're using AI in their disability findings, summarizing medical records. I'm imagining judges are probably using AI to help draft decisions. And so at the very least, we have to understand it. I know there are a lot of practitioners who are like, "Not interested, I've been doing it this way for a long time. I'm not gonna change." And I think that is a mistake. It's not like you have to spend a lot of money on getting some great AI program. You can just start by familiarizing yourself with it using one of the free platforms. That's kind of how I started, just getting comfortable communicating I think I started with ChatGPT and then I realized that wow, this is really amazing what this tool can do. I started tailoring it more to my practice and then was introduced to Chronicle. And so yeah, I just knew that it was it's a leap. If you're gonna run a successful disability practice, you absolutely have to incorporate AI, no matter how small or large your firm is. It's a necessity. Will Yang (24:45) Are you able to share any moments where you knowing your team was able to do something that just maybe five years ago was not even possible, but now, you are able to because of these shifts in your workflows? Tracey Pate (24:57) There are a lot, but probably the most rewarding is, we're quickly able to see when a favorable decision is issued. In real time, literally. It's issued and it pops up on our system. And so we can immediately contact the client and give them the good news. And that's sort of brings us full circle from, the mission of really serving the client on an individual basis every step of the way, when we're able to call them and tell them that their case has been approved. And knowing that, after two years of waiting, they're gonna have a roof over their head in some cases is pretty sweet. Will Yang (25:36) That's gotta be such a rewarding moment for everybody involved as well. When you think about those cases, is there any one case that stands out from all these years that you always think about, maybe on the worst days when, you know, maybe you haven't won a case? Tracey Pate (25:50) You know, it's so hard to pick one case. I've really been thinking about that. I would just say Just being able to change a person's life, even though no amount of money will make their health, will turn their health situation around. To know that they can focus on their health without worrying, how am I going to get food on the table? How am I going to pay my rent? How am I going to make my mortgage? That's why I do what I do. And I would say it's really hard to just choose one. But That's the reason that I keep going and probably will never retire. Will Yang (26:30) Well, they say that if you can do work that doesn't feel like work, then you you're gonna work forever, right? Like why would you stop doing that? For that intellectual stimulation as well as servicing Tracey Pate (26:37) Right. Exactly. Exactly. Will Yang (26:41) and being part of something bigger than yourself and obviously all those other community points as well in terms of feeling connected to others. Before Tracey Pate (26:49) You're so right. Will Yang (26:50) we wrap up into our lightning round, what would you tell a newer attorney that's considering disability law today that you wish somebody had told you back in year one of doing this work? Tracey Pate (27:02) I probably would tell them to make sure you have a business plan and I think we jumped into it and realized we need a finance person. We need somebody to help us count paper clips and things like that and get our IT to where it needs to be. Some of think of the practical things. I would say that that's something that's a mistake I made. I should have there were a lot of practical things I should have thought of beforehand, but I learned. So that would be my advice. Just get your outside support that you're gonna need. And It really does help to speak to colleagues who have gone through this because they're gonna say, Hey, you need to call this person. They'll help you with IT and this person's a great, business accountant and so don't isolate yourself because there's so many other people who gone before you that want to help. I started Disability Associates in two thousand five. I can't even imagine how you could leverage technology now to start a business. I'm sort of jealous, but I Will Yang (28:07) Mm-hmm. Tracey Pate (28:08) but I'm sure that there are a lot of resources there too. Will Yang (28:11) Yeah, I think there's some great points in there. I think especially the the parts of not being afraid to reach out. What do you think somebody should think carefully about before choosing, to go into a business with a partner versus going about it by themselves? Tracey Pate (28:24) I guess it would depend on the person, but I mean, as an attorney, you want to be able to do what you do best and that's practice law. And in order to do that you need support. So that would be my biggest reason because no one can prepare you for the administrative challenges that face any new business. No one can. And so to have someone else to support you and to go through the process and help you troubleshoot is invaluable. Will Yang (28:57) And it's something that's super impressive as well, 'cause you both have done it as a woman owned business as well. And that's something in a space that is traditionally very male dominated. How did you all stick through it in those moments? And, what w advice would you give to another, woman that's thinking about spinning up a disability practice? Tracey Pate (29:15) my gosh. Just do it. I mean women, we're so good at this. I mean, just the compassion and comes very naturally. We're caregivers, but also just so so much to offer. I would say don't hesitate, don't be intimidated. There's so many more women now than than when I started and I just kept putting one foot forward and I'm like real having confidence in myself and realizing that I'm really good at this, just have that confidence and strength and know that you're gonna be great. Will Yang (29:47) I'm curious when you think about all the years that you run your practice, what makes a small firm stay excellent over the decades without burning out the people who built it? You've had your team for a long time. What's the key? Tracey Pate (29:58) It's true. It's true. That is a concern. The key is to treat your employees like I tell my staff all the time, I could not do this without you. And your team, your people have to be have to feel valued and appreciate it and realize how what an important part in the whole process because for the most part they're the front line. I mean they're taking most of the calls, they're fielding most of the calls. And so that burnout is it's real. And we're such a tight knit unit that if we see it happening with someone, we'll say, Hey, Take the day off phones. Don't pick up the phone. Just you know, we'll carry the slack. So that is important because you still want to be able to treat everyone as individuals. And the concern is with burnout and just not being cognizant of that in the practice, you end up becoming mechanical and you're just pushing paper and you're going on to the next case. And then and then that defeats the purpose of why we're even doing what we're doing. Will Yang (31:05) Yeah, and I think when you were sharing that, what came to mind is just how so many of this connects back to the earlier threads. It's like your own emotional intelligence showing up in terms of how you recognize, you know, the team members on your team and making sure that they feel seen and heard, not just that your clients feel seen and heard, but also your core team and all these other pieces too, in terms of, needing to make sure at the of the day, regardless of what work you're in, it's all about helping people feel seen and from there. Tracey Pate (31:32) Absolutely. Will Yang (31:32) you know, connecting it. So I love that. Tracey Pate (31:33) Absolutely. Yep. Will Yang (31:36) Very so I'd love to take us into the lightning round. My first question for you in the lightning round. These are just like short, shorter responses to this, but hopefully some fun questions. The first question to kick us off is what is the SSA form that you hate the most? Tracey Pate (31:51) my gosh, that I hate the most. The SSA form that I hate the most. There's so many. I probably okay. Will Yang (31:58) You can also list a top list if you want. Tracey Pate (32:01) I probably hate the adult function report the most because it's the form that that DDS sends to the client. And, it has questions such as, do you grocery shop? How often? I mean, just like a check marked form. And every time I read them, I'm like, there is no way that this form captures what my client is doing or dealing with on a day to day basis. And so I really I really don't like it. So sometimes I'll have clients, I'll say how can we enhance this? You know, can we add the additional things that you want to tell Social Security on another sheet of paper? Or there's nothing that prevents us from doing that. And I'm sure when the D D S examiner gets the my giant adult function reports with all the attachments, they're loving it. But but yeah, I would say that's the form I really really hate the most. Will Yang (32:59) Next question for you is what is your biggest pet peeve when it comes to ALJ behaviors? Tracey Pate (33:04) My biggest pet peeve is when a judge lacks judicial temperament and I'm putting that nicely. For most claimants, a disability hearing is the most terrifying and vulnerable day of their lives. And I'm not saying a judge needs to approve, every claim, but when they bring impatience or arrogance into the room, I feel like it strips the client of their dignity and it's just so unnecessary. Will Yang (33:33) The best advice that you got in maybe a couple sentences when it comes to either one of the association groups or a mentor of yours. Tracey Pate (33:41) Yeah. So the best ad advice I would say would be from a mentor actually was a judge I clerked for and he he said, "Make a decision. That's the most important thing I can tell you, make a decision." And what he meant by that was, for example, you know, starting my own disability practice. You know, I I could ruminate for days, for months, for years and do I not do it? And his words came back to me, like I just need to make a decision and go with it. And that was his point. Make a decision. Whether it's right or wrong, everything w will fall into place. But the worst thing you could do is just remain in analysis paralysis and never really take that leap. So that's probably the best thing. Will Yang (34:27) Today, what are some of your favorite disability tech tools that you use? Tracey Pate (34:33) my favorite disability tech tools, well obviously Chronicle. I can't say enough about Chronicle. I really like the AI tools that I'm paying a little bit more for, not much, to help me come up with unique direct examination questions and hearings. Just things that I, haven't really thought of before to just kind of expand my mind and also to research conditions that that I'm not as familiar with and then to tailor questions that that will make it so the judge will understand what the claimant, what the condition is and how it affects the claimant. Will Yang (35:13) I love that. I love that part because it's essentially using AI to stretch the realm of possibility of how you're pushing yourself, which then links back to that earlier thread Tracey Pate (35:22) Absolutely. Will Yang (35:23) of you being able to now take more of those tougher cases or the borderline clients that you previously weren't able to. And then the Tracey Pate (35:27) Yes. Ibsa exactly. Will Yang (35:30) the last lightning round question I have for you is obviously not every day is a day where you win, but in a day after a case doesn't go your way, what do you do? Tracey Pate (35:40) when a case doesn't go my way, I sit with it. After the the difficult conversation with my client, which is probably the worst part of my job, we decide what, next steps is it's i are we going to appeal? Is it a case that maybe, I'm not sure can will be successful on appeal. But I don't let it ruin my day because I know there are so many other people who are depending on me to pull up my bootstraps, so to speak, and keep moving on. And my hope is that even with the cases I lose that the person at least felt heard and felt that we gave it the best shot we possibly could. And if if that's the case then then I can I can go to sleep at night. Will Yang (36:25) Sounds Tracy's thanks so much for the time. If people want to be in touch with you, just to connect with you, learn more about what you've Tracey Pate (36:30) Absolutely. Will Yang (36:32) done, what's the best way that they can get in touch with you? Tracey Pate (36:34) gosh, they can call the office disability associates. They can shoot me an email. Maybe you can provide all my contact information, Will. But yeah, I would love to to talk to people. Young lawyers maybe thinking about going this route or anybody really, because I really am passionate what I you know, about what I do and would love to share that with other people thinking about doing the same thing. Will Yang (37:01) Great. We will include that contact information in the show notes. Tracy, really appreciate the time. What a great story and just the decades Tracey Pate (37:08) Awesome. Will Yang (37:08) that you spent in this practice. And it's been such a pleasure in learning all about it. Tracey Pate (37:12) Great. Thanks so much, Will, for the opportunity.